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Are Arsenal fans too negative?  

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Admin Martin
(@admin-martin)
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29/06/2019 12:32 am  

Some of the recent polls conducted on here have been an eye-opener.

The majority think they are in the shadow of Tottenham

The majority do not think Arsenal are an elite club

The majority think we will finish 6th

All very negative

But there are some positives

The Majority think we are closer to Man Utd, Chelsea and Tottenham and not Wolves, Leicester and Everton.

The majority have confidence in Unai Emery

So, are Arsenal fans too negative?

Are Arsenal fans too negative?

  • Yes (52%, 11 Votes)
  • No (48%, 10 Votes)

Total Voters: 21

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Goonsterz
(@goonsterz)
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29/06/2019 7:30 am  

No we are not too negative.. Every single club in our situation for that last 10 year or so would be doing the same thing. 

Just check out other clubs fan forums, the moaning and whining on their part is the same us ours.

we have been a joke club for more than a decade and what kind of reaction or mood di you expect?


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ken1945
(@ken1945)
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29/06/2019 5:13 pm  

We are a joke club in the last ten years?

What with 3 fa cup wins - 8 top four finishes - 8 consecutive CL qualifications?

I guess apart from city, pool, chelsea and leicester, the other clubs are crying at what they couldn't achieve and that's with kronkie in charge of finances.

Go onto all the other sites of clubs who have played in the premiership and it's our fans who are the joke...at least those who come out with statements like yours.

They would have loved to boast of a record like ours and our noisy neighbours are the perfect example.


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RSH
 RSH
(@rsh)
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29/06/2019 6:58 pm  

ken, UCL qualifications are not trophies. Spurs got further in the competition than we have in over 10 years of participation. It has not been a fruitful 10 years. Not terrible, but Liverpool, City, Chelsea, and even United to an extent have had much more success than us. Those are the clubs we are supposed to be competing with. Not celebrating St. Totteringham Day and Top 4 spots. Fans are angry because we've lost our way and we don't even know how to compete for an EPL title anymore. Top4 is just an achievement to go and do better. Arsenal have not been treating it as such since the Emirates move because it's only become about money, and any AFC fan should see that in our owners.


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ken1945
(@ken1945)
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29/06/2019 9:44 pm  

RSH, without CL qualification, it becomes so much more difficult to try and compete with the clubs you mentioned, that is why competition amongst those without unlimited funds to buy success, is so forcefully competed for.

That is why competition for the top four is deemed essential, with winning the premiership as the next step in my opinion.

Every single manager in the top six last season has said this and that's why qualifying for twenty years was so important.

What you might want to consider is that, during the ten years you mention, we have won more trophies than liverpool and spurs.  This, despite STILL having to finance the new stadium, something that now seems to be dismissed, while still having to pay £15,000,000 a year until 2031.

In fact, if pool hadn't won the CL last season, klopp would have gone five years without winning anything, along with poch.

What others don't realize is that I concur with you regarding "losing our way", but not in the last ten years for goodness sake - rather, in my opinion, this began during the last two seasons under AW.

First of all, his own future/contract  became the focus of the  club and himself to the detriment of what was going on with the players and results. Secondly, this resulted in him losing the dressing room from the beginning of the next season and he finally recognized this after fan involvement and results on the pitch. It doesn't matter if he resigned or was sacked, the important thing was that he left.

My difference with yourself is thatyou believe the ten years were  a disaster and he left dross players. It is obvious that you are a passionate and sensible supporter, but I just cannot understand your thinking regarding this.

How can a team of dross players possibly win three fa cups, finish in a top four position for eight of those years, along with the CL. This while working under the kronkie idea of running a successful football club. Now I'm not claiming that we had w/class players, we couldn't with the budget and the likes of city and chelsea unlimited money. Also, AW signed some really bad  players, we both know that. What is more frustrating is we are now being told about the kind of players AW wanted to sign and who we missed out on. This was down to kronkie and gazidis not backing the manager, or rather in gazidis;s case, underminding him.

As a supporter for a very long time, I am not happy that we haven't challenged for the premiership or CL, that goes without saying, but to say we have failed for ten years is a gross overstatement.

All the above is why I believe we are a negative set of supporters, the glass being half empty instead of half full.

Sorry it's a long winded reply, but I follow you "in the other place" and respect your views and passion. Couldn't miss the opportunity to go into a deeper discussion...hope your not too bored!!!


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tommogun58
(@tommogun58)
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01/07/2019 8:00 am  

We all want to see us doing well and winning trophies that is what gives us the buzz winning any game makes us feel better about our team, I think what has made it harder for us is the success that Arsene Wenger got us over a number of years and we are all a bit deflated because we are not reaching those dizzy heights at the moment,also fans want to see the players playing with passion the same passion that we all have in wanting the club to be successful and there is nothing worse than seeing players putting in the effort,I would be a liar if I said I am never negative, I get very disappointed when we play poorly as we did in the run-in and sadly to finish on a negative note I cannot see a way of improving things much when the coach is given a meesly 45m.


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tommogun58
(@tommogun58)
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01/07/2019 8:02 am  

Sorry that should have read players NOT putting in the effort.


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jon fox
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01/07/2019 5:56 pm  

 Ken , you are always so content with far less success than almost anyone else on here.  Exactly why, pray?


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ken1945
(@ken1945)
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01/07/2019 9:10 pm  

Could it be Jon, that I have taken a leaf out of your book and am being realistic?

As TommoGun83 says, every supporter wants the best and, under Arsene Wenger, we saw that with the Invincibles.

Now I am realistic enough to realize that such a squad comes along once every few decades if I'm lucky.

That doesn't mean that, in the meantime, I should bitch and moan because the situation changes. I live in the real world, where fortunes change and cycles occur. Who would have thought that an American would have bought our club lock, stock and barrel, with the Bracewells as the main culprits?

I am proud and priviliged to have witnessed the kind of football I never ever dreamed I would see at The Arsenal. Of course I hope to be around when the club appoint a manager who will surpass the record of Mr. Wenger and meantime I am realistic enough to know it will take time.

As I have said, bitching and moaning about what happened afterwards is each individuals perfect right, but for myself it seems such a waste of time and energy.

For me the glass is always half full, especially after witnessing decades of rubbish, so you see Jon, my passion for the club is the same whether we are winning or losing and that's why I actually feel sorry for those who always need to look backwards and complain.


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jon fox
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02/07/2019 1:20 pm  

A nicely put reply Ken which shows  exactly  what I thought; namely that you are far less demanding and farv more patient than most on here, myself included. In life  m

My  life philosophy - which is  possibly the  key reason for  our personal differences on the Wenger last decade - is that all of us  have a duty to ourselves and to society, plus our employers and fans(where applicable) to  achieve the very most it is possible to achieve with our own personal abilities. I dislike laziness , idleness and coasting through life  intensely. Wenger had long  ago become mentally lazy and was coasting  on his previous success, even though he no longer  did his utmost. He knew as well as anyone how  huge a hole there was in DM ,yet chose to  not rectify it and for  year after year too. Not good enough! And not for a man of his undoubted talents , especially. Likewise my loathing of  Walcott, who had  many advantages but chose to coast through his career and not  milk and enhance his talent by hard work.  Same with Ozil, who is  far more talented than Walcott but shuns the necessary  dedication so  amply shown by countless lesser players who wore our shirt.  Mkhi too is bone idle and coasts .  As fans ,who give  love and adoration to these players and pay through the nose for the "privilege" of doing so, sheer fair play   by players giving  back to  fans for this adoration and the money we provide for their personal wealth, compels ALL players to try their utmost all the time. THAT, Ken , is why I have  no time for coasters and never have, nor ever will. It is not  a glass half empty versus glass half full comparison. That is a false comparison. It is about being the best, the VERY best you can ever be. Either you believe in that or you do not. I , at least DO ! 


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ken1945
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02/07/2019 2:39 pm  

Jon, thanks for the reply and the thoughts.

What I have to say to you in reply, I hope you will take as a reasoned compliment and not the opposite!!

Your perception of what is always giving  of the best is admirable...but you are judging others on what you perceive their best should be.

You believe that Walcott is a great example of someone who didn't give their best...but how on earth do you know that? The same goes for Ozil, or any other person inside or outside of football who you don't know personally?

If you were to ask me if Walcott lived up to MY expectations I would say No, but who am I to judge him in such personal vitriolic words as you use? For all we know, he reached his pinnacle and could go no further. You and I will never know for certain if Walcott etc did achieve the best they ever could, we can only SURMISE and that, my friend, is the crux of the matter and why we differ on a lot of football debates.

You believe that what you perceive in a persons abilities is the actual truth, but it isn't because you don't know the individual yourself, probably never met him and, most crucially, have no idea of his make up as a human being. Of course Jon, you might be completely right in your judgements, but you cannot be certain.

It's like your "the vast majority" phrase (which by the way I love to use!!!), again, that's your opinion based on the views of a very small catchment area of the millions of The Arsenal fans around the world... I, on the other hand, realize that my views are mine alone and that is probably why I am so much more content with life regarding The Arsenal than you will ever be IN THAT I listen, read, digest and compare my original thoughts with those that have challenged me.

I enjoy debating with you, because I know you don't change your views, no matter what...and  I am always trying to throw a spanner into your (what I see anyway) as rigid thoughts.

I am now going to go and top up my half full glass with a lovely smooth merlot and toast a genuine gooner,  Mr. Fox, who in my opinion hasn't reached the height of his capabilities as yet!!!


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jon fox
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03/07/2019 1:50 pm  

 Ken, Oh how I love your  wonderful reply and I would  concede  that  some of your comments touch a chord in me. Specifically on Walcott and what I see as lazy players in general, Ozil and Mkhi currently, I  disagree with you on those and  say that that  you need  nothing more than eyes and a  decent brain to determine  laziness.  If you see a player not tracking back, not  running hard into space and not working  with determination that IS laziness. No   two ways about it!   I do not make excuses for what I see as laziness and never have  as you well know and   state. If in life you are blessed with  great or even some talent you have a self responsibility to use those GIFTS for   the very best they may  attain. I realise that some on the liberal  and snowflake end of political thinking   find this unkind and  brutal. I totally dissent from this view.  I have  long argued on political forums and in public open debate that  ttrue liberalism is about freeingoneslef from resperainst , INCLUDING ,the restraint that so much os society tries to put on us with its "Oh never mind, you did your best" type comments, even whenit is clear that so very often that person is using sympathy and softness as a crutchand is  actually weak in charecter and lazy. When those  same people are trousering  monster salaries by playing Prem football, they need to be held to account, which will free them from  the harmful settle for less mentality that chains them. Time right now  restricts further  my comment on this but I am keen to further discuss this general  topic in person with you at the earliest opportunity. I have utmost respect and admiration for you Ken as a   decent and wise man!


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ken1945
(@ken1945)
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03/07/2019 2:57 pm  

Jon, thanks for the reply.

I will ask you ne straightforward question here and, when you answer it, please give me your reasons / validity and sources.

How do you KNOW that anyone (other than yourself of course) has ever decided NOT to strive to reach the pinnacle of their capabilities?

Simple question, loaded with opportunities to divert from the actual point, but I know you won't do that...

Today's society has changed enormously from our childhood, my great grandson's school will not allow winners and losers!!! As you say, "they tried their best"...and that is my point of course...nobody but the individual him/herself ACTUALLY knows.

Views and opinions are the essence of free thinking and talking, but the danger is that views and opinions then become accepted as facts, which, of course, they are not...THAT'S A FACT!!!

Look forward to continuing this subject.

 


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jon fox
(@jon-fox)
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04/07/2019 1:06 pm  

Ken this is my third attempt to rply, two attempts having been wiped before sending. If this reaches you , I will send a full and detailed response  once again   this evening, Thursday.    Rather busy right now.


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jon fox
(@jon-fox)
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04/07/2019 7:33 pm  

 Ken, Firstly a great debate worthy of us "old fogies"! On your "How do you know" question, I do not accept the premise of your question at all, so cannot answer what does not apply to me. In other words , of course I do not know what is anyones elses head BUT I do not need to know what is in their heads  in order to diagnose laziness and that is  our whole dispute summed up in that sentence.  We are talking here only about laziness , in the case of Ozil and Mkhi, not about the wider subject you and I both raised of society in general and  individual achievement or lack of it. On that  deeper subject,  I will be only too pleased to debate by telephone or email but it is not for this Arsenal site as it would be   non Arsenal related.

 

 Anything else I could say about  those two  idle players would be only to repeat what I say in my earlier posts so it is pointless . And as you say, I do not often change my mind and certainly will not on this  matter. You see Ken,    being very precise, I  distinguish greatly between mere  degree of ambition of any individual, on the one hand and clear absence of  it ( in Ozil and Mkhi), by refusing to work hard on the other hand. You are in effect arguing that no one can ever determine for certain what is laziness in another person. I totally reject that argument as being a false one by you. By your logic, it  would seem that not even a husband or wife calling their other half lazy could ever be    accurate for certain. I would further add that  there are many who confuse  clear facts with opinions. Those in the  Flat Earth Society whose opinion is that all others who  don't believe are wrong. Those who believe in conspiracy theories, e.g Prince Philip having had Princess Diana killed, those who deny human cause for  climate change(Trump!!).  The rest of us know these are false and  the falseness is FACT but some will always claim facts as mere opinions. I hope you fully take this point. To me ,  Ozils laziness is FACT, never opinion. I wait to hear further, if you wish to  carry on debating and in the meantime wish you well.

 

 


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